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Re: Re: Yes, we can dismiss what is misguided (Reply to this comment)
by eplovejoy
You know more about Bergman than I do so perhaps you're right that he wasn't pleased with the movie's message. But it seemed to me that the characters' response to the spring was exaggerated, as if the film was meant to suggest they were trying too hard to make it mean what they want it to mean.
I'll have to read more about Bergman and see more of his films, the ones that really are his. Thanks for planting the seed.
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Jun 04 '04
10:02 am PDT
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Re: Yes, we can dismiss what is misguided (Reply to this comment)
by metalluk
I don't believe in a god so I do not think the emergence of the spring is evidence of God's forgiveness, or even that Bergman saw it that way.
I may be mistaken, but I think we are actually agreeing about the substance here rather than disagreeing. I was trying to describe what I thought to be the film's intended message, not my own metaphysical views. I personally do not believe that their is a God who forgives people merely because of their religious affiliation. Forgiveness would be reserved by any reasonable authority (whether godly or human) for when there is genuine contrition and/or an honest effort at earning redemption in some way. My only disagreement with your above paragraph is the I do not believe that this particular film reflects Bergman's viewpoint. He did not provide the script and was merely director of the filming in this particular case.
To me, the eagerness with which the characters point to the spring is a sign of how desperate they are to believe Tore has been forgiven. They are deluding themselves.
The way I see it, those who do believe there is a God and who believe that anyone on Earth has the power to forgive them will be stunned to find themselves facing their God's judgment. If what they profess to believe is true, that God certainly will not forgive the murder of a child, no matter how showily pious the murdered is in this life.
Here, I agree with everything you've said.
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Jun 04 '04
7:03 am PDT
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Yes, we can dismiss what is misguided (Reply to this comment)
by eplovejoy
Your critique is interesting and I'm grateful for the insights you provide into a film I remember clearly although it is quite some time since I watched it.
You and I disagree about the message, perhaps because we disagree about the nature of Christianity's forgiveness:
but Töre is entitled to God’s forgiveness(evidenced by the emergence of the spring)
I don't believe in a god so I do not think the emergence of the spring is evidence of God's forgiveness, or even that Bergman saw it that way. To me, the eagerness with which the characters point to the spring is a sign of how desperate they are to believe Tore has been forgiven. They are deluding themselves.
The way I see it, those who do believe there is a God and who believe that anyone on Earth has the power to forgive them will be stunned to find themselves facing their God's judgment. If what they profess to believe is true, that God certainly will not forgive the murder of a child, no matter how showily pious the murdered is in this life.
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Jun 03 '04
2:24 pm PDT
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